Bending Tools Towards Justice with Deepti Sharma

I sat down with entrepreneur, strategist, and community builder Deepti Sharma to explore what entrepreneurs can learn from organizers. From building FoodtoEat—a mission-driven platform that helped immigrant and underrepresented food vendors grow—to running for New York City Council and teaching the next generation of entrepreneurs, Deepti shares her journey of bending tools towards justice and creating opportunities for those who are systematically overlooked.

As a daughter of immigrants and a New Yorker through and through, Deepti brings a unique perspective on collective action, community organizing, and how we can rebuild with care at the center during these exhausting times.

Learn more about Deepti: https://www.deeptisharma.com/

Timestamps

• 00:00 Introduction and Deepti's multihyphenate identity
• 02:00 Growing up in Queens and early community service
• 05:00 From politics to starting FoodtoEat
• 09:00 Why entrepreneurship keeps calling
• 14:00 What entrepreneurs can learn from organizers
• 21:00 How capitalism can be bent towards justice
• 23:00 The line between entrepreneurship and politics
• 26:00 Running for office and learning from constituents
• 32:00 Bending tools towards justice in unjust times
• 37:00 Dealing with exhaustion and rebuilding with care

Transcript

Speaker: 0:05

Welcome back to Empathetic Presence. I'm your host Lee Today. I'm so excited to share my interview with Deepti Sharma. I first met my friend Deepti as an entrepreneur. She has created companies. She has led. Activism within her community. She has run for office in Queens, New York. She's a parent, and I was really interested in talking to Deep ti about the connection between organizing and entrepreneurship. We talk about bending tools towards justice. We talked about building trust as a mechanism in entrepreneurship, and we talk about listening to communities instead of just pitching. Welcome Deep ti. I am so excited to chat with you.

Deepti: 0:49

It so.

Lee: 0:49

to be here. I am always excited to be in conversation with you, Deepti, and you're someone I admire so much. You do so many things. You're a mission-driven entrepreneur. You're an activist, you're a parent, you're a community member, and I wanna hear from you. How do you tell your story given that you do so many amazing things?

Deepti: 1:17

Well, first of all, hearing you say those, all those things, I'm like, I just, I'm exhausted. I don't know if you feel this, but, um, as a parent and an entrepreneur and all the other things that I try to do to help my community, I'm constantly exhausted, both physically and mentally, um, but really excited that there are. Really simple ways for us to get together and help each other in community. 'cause I think that's what I feel like I need the most, um, is to be surrounded by people that ha are thinking about how we can collectively work together towards a brighter future where we're all thriving and not just surviving. 'cause I feel like a lot of entrepreneurship and parenting is just survival. so my journey, you know, I'm a, um, native New Yorker, born and brought up in Queens, New York. Queens has always been home for me. I have, you know, lived abroad and studied abroad and traveled a bunch. But Queens has always been my home and I'm really excited to raise my children here. Uh, they actually go to the same elementary school as I did, and it's the wildest thing to see them. Yeah, my. My now 7-year-old was in my kindergarten class for his three K program and I'm pretty sure the cubbies have never changed. Um, and he was using mine or was Yeah, or was right next to mine or something, and it's really wild. Um, so yeah, I have not left New York. Don't know how to leave New York. Um, I love the city so much, but um, I think it's why I've chosen it to be my spirit. Place to continue to, you know, live but also build and create. Um, so my journey started, you know, I would say in middle school my school was a part of a program where we did community service as a part of our learning. It was one of the pillars of our education. So what that meant was every week I went to, um, a preschool or a kindergarten class and spent time with the students. One year we went to, um. To a classroom where some of the students were disabled and one of the students had cerebral palsy. And I had never experienced cerebral palsy in my life at that age. It was probably 12 or 13, um, maybe a little bit younger. And I remember watching a kid, um, having a seizure. It's, it's a very distinct memory. 'cause a kid was in a wheelchair and I didn't know what to do. And I saw the teachers, you know, the paras like very calmly, like, handled the situation. And this was normal, right? This happened a few times a day. Um, but in that moment I was like, wow, I really wanna find a way to help people. Um, you know, I'm a very privileged person. I didn't know the words at that time, but I realized that I had something, um, that this kid didn't, right? And so I just wanted to. Every week I wanted to go back and try to bring some sort of joy, um, into this, into this kid's life. Um, and I tried to do that throughout the four years that I spent doing community service in the school that I was in. But that moment really I think was the opening of what my life has led me to do, um, which is always trying to create new opportunities, um, for. You know, underserved, overlooked, what, however we wanna call it disadvantaged. Um, but, but people that are constantly not given the opportunity to, um, live their best selves right, live their best lives and, and, and, and, and really thrive in, in the community that really is there for them. Um, and so, yeah. And so that when I got to college, that turned into politics. I thought, you know, as, as a. As a South Asian, it's always like, oh, doctor, that's the way to help people. But when I got to college, politics really kind of became my space. I started working on my first campaign in 2005 for somebody who was running for mayor. Um, I. And I think that's where I fell in love with the idea of electing someone that could essentially drive change, create policies, create, um, things for a community to be able to thrive and not just, you know, survive. And so politics became a thing the next four years. I worked on different campaigns. I worked for a political consulting firm, kept thinking this was gonna be the thing for me. Um, fast forward 2008. I was graduating in a recession and the thought of law school hit me thinking, okay, well getting a job right now is gonna be incredibly hard or it's not gonna pay well. Um, what about law school? And that's, you know, when you work in politics, that feels like the next natural progression. And, um, while I was studying for my LSATs, I. I think very much fell out of love with the idea of going to law school and, um, accidentally started my first company Food to Eat, which, um, in its first version was a online ordering platform for food trucks and carts. The way that happened was I was standing in line at a food truck and waited for 30 minutes for a peanut butter cookie. 'cause at this time, food trucks and carts were all the rage. Um, and there were so many new food trucks and carts coming up. And I thought to myself like, why did I just wait 30 minutes for a cookie? I'm a New Yorker. I never wait in line. For some reason, I did, and I think I would just didn't wanna go back into the library and start studying for my LSATs again. So I was like, you know what? This is my only breathing time. Um, but I quickly like, you know, I, you know, so I was in New York City, you know, I was in Manhattan. I would go, um, to Manhattan, to the public library on Fifth Avenue and 40th. Um, because I just wanted to get out of my environment and go to something that was different. And I'd walked up and down and there'd be so many different food trucks and carts, and I'd start talking to a bunch of them. And through that experience, I started hearing a lot of stories, um, about immigration, about. Not being seen. You know, I remember talking to one food cart owner who, um, served coffee and bagels in the morning, and his story was he had created the Afghanistan currency. I. He was selling coffee in bagels in New York City, and it was the wildest thing. It's like if we just take a moment to talk to people, we learn so much about them, right? I mean, I feel like this is what this podcast is, is to learn from each other, hear people's stories, and see how we can help each other through one. One way or another. Um, anyways, that experience of talking to all these food trucking cart owners led me to start my, the first version of Food to Eat. Um, and you know, we quickly pivoted into, um. A corporate catering platform as opposed to just working with food trucks and carts as a online ordering platform. Um, and that happened through, again, just listening to our community of folks that we had on our platform. But, um, food to eat in its latest and last form it was a corporate catering platform where we centered immigrant women, um, black and brown restaurant owners and food cart owners to be able to get catering opportunities at large corporate offices. And so what that meant was I. Companies like Warby Parker, the Skim, Microsoft, they were ordering, uh, food from our platform from all of these amazing vendors. Um, and this, the unique part of what we did was, um, we were creating an opportunity for them to have the, the restaurants and food trucks have access to these corporations that they never had before. They were never able to apply for these large, um. Gigs because these companies didn't really know if they could actually handle them. So we curated the restaurants, um, and we helped them actually build up to be able to feed 3, 4, 500 people at a time. Um, because a lot of the times these small places didn't actually have the means to do that.

Lee: 8:56

And Deepti, I first met you when you were doing food to eat and I just was so moved and inspired and it makes so much sense to me that in you telling your story, you start with New York City and Queens and that that is, you know, the, the real like. Uh, the mechanism that has like centered all of your work, whether you have been running a business, whether you're running for office, whether you are a community activist, New York City has been at the center, and it's not lost on me that you were born and raised in the most diverse county

Deepti: 9:32

Yeah.

Lee: 9:33

world. Right

Deepti: 9:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Lee: 9:35

You know, and I love that you have in this almost multihyphenate way, you could be in any industry, you could be in any kind of sort of organization. You're so resourceful and creative, and you keep coming back to entrepreneurship and what is that, that pull for you towards starting something?

Deepti: 9:59

I mean, I, I always think about collective care and action and, um, you know, for me, collective. Action is when people come together to create change, um, that they can't do alone. And you know, when I was starting Food to eat, you know, you could see, oh, you know, it's a, it was just a catering platform, but really what it was was. A way to create new opportunities for restaurant owners. It was a way to add to their bottom line. It was a way for them to be able to grow and scale so that in turn, they can provide for their families. Now going back to the story of. The man I met who was selling coffee and bagels, um, and back home in Afghanistan had created the currency like he had designed the currency is that when he came here, he was looking for an opportunity to be able to make money so that he could send his children to college, he could provide for his family. Um, what I noticed in these conversations was that a lot of them weren't, um. You know, chefs that were trained, they were just doing what they knew best, which was providing a, you know, nice home cooked meal for their families. And they thought, well, I can do that in, in cart form, in restaurant form. And um, if the food is good enough, then people will continue to come. And I. I realized that a lot of them didn't have business backgrounds either. They weren't thinking about scale, they weren't thinking about what if I serve more people in one day. They were just doing things the way they were told and somebody had done it before them. And so to me it was really about care. Um, it was, you know, the people that were often shut out of the corporate world, how can I help them? By listening to them, right by building trust and designing a business model that worked for them and not just for the bottom line. Something that really helped them be able to provide for their families, help them to really feel good about what they do on a day-to-day basis. And so for me, that was, um, what, you know, really drew me to entrepreneurship, um, is this idea of collective care. Um, and not immediately thinking about the hockey stick. Um, which is what every. Investor. Once, right? Every person in the venture world wants to see this hockey stick and probably why it was really tough for me to raise money, um, also being a woman, um, and a woman who didn't have an Ivy League background or the resume that they wanted, uh, given who I am. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think, so for me it was really about how do I dive into the community, listen to them, and create something that had never been created for them before. Um, I. While listening to them, um, even like, you know, I was saying even when we pivoted into the corporate catering, um, we pivoted because it was really hard for us to fundraise. Um, as a solo founder, it was really hard being a woman. It was really hard. Um, I was being asked questions like, when are you planning on having children? And, and to me it was ridiculous 'cause it was like, how is that relevant to me building my business? Um. And so, yeah. So to me, entrepreneurship has always been about a form of organizing. Um, especially because, again, going back to women, immigrants, people of color, refugees, they're often never given opportunities or capital and they don't have the same access. Um, so I created it. My first company centered around that so that I can showcase how. If you center people that are often overlooked, that aren't given opportunities, um, what that means. And you can actually build a million dollar business, which I did, you know, by 2020. We were, um, one of like, I think it's less than, I don't know the exact percent, but it's a very small percentage of women own businesses that make it to a million dollar revenue mark. Um, which to me is crazy. And it's, again, it goes back to. Access to a network, access to capital, um, and, you know, give people being given the right opportunities, right? Being invited to do things that they've never been able to do before.

Lee: 14:04

Yeah. Word opportunity. And you have said that, and that is so much of. What you have centered your life's work on is creating those opportunities. And even the way you talk about as organizing, you know, I've never heard of that before. I've never thought of that. And it's almost like you are creating these opportunities for people to build in their own way instead of this idea of entrepreneurship, which I think a lot of us have, which is like you have to do it a certain way, or there's a way to do business and you have to fit into someone else's. System and mold, which we know how racist and exclusionary and historically prejudiced that entire world has been. And so can you talk a little bit more about what you're saying about the connection between entrepreneurship and organizing and collective action collective care?

Deepti: 14:57

Yeah. I mean, so there's, if we were to think about it, you know, I think it's really simple. Um. What entrepreneurs can learn from organizers and vice versa, right? So it always starts with people. Um, organizers know that change starts by deeply understanding the needs, struggles, and the dreams of the community. And entrepreneurs can build better and more impactful businesses if they start by listening and not pitching. You know, not going immediately and saying, Hey, I know what the problem is and this is what the solution is. Right? But if you, so what's most important, and again, they learn from each other, is by actually understanding, well, yes, this is the problem. Why does the problem exist? Um, what is the history behind the problem? And then going to say to them, here's a solution I'm proposing. What do you think about this? If you don't think this is the right way, how would you propose it be better? Right. So really starting with the people and not the product you think they need. Um, and then really building trust before scale. Organizers know that trust is earned over time. Entrepreneurs, you know, because. They have investors that they have to answer to. They often rush to scale, but real sustainability comes from relationships and not just metrics. So not always thinking about how do I provide that hockey stick? It's really about how do you build that trust, which again, takes time. It doesn't happen overnight. You can't just go to a place and say, I think you should sign up for my platform. Um, and I learned that the hard way because when I was building the platform and I was going to, you know, restaurants or food trucks and saying, Hey, sign up. They're like, who are you again? So I had to learn to like build that trust and to showcase why they should trust me, why I am the right platform for them to join. Um, the next thing I think about is like, power is collective, right? Organizers don't necessarily wait for permission. They mobilize people. You don't always have to wait for someone to tell you. It's now your turn to run for office. Um, you know, and entrepreneurs can learn to share decision making, build with, but not just for users, right? Co-create solutions. Even when we pivoted food to eat from a consumer platform to a B2B platform. We co-created by actually talking to the restaurants and the food trucks we were building the platform for, and said, okay, if this B2C platform isn't working, what do you need? And they were like, catering would be so much. Better. What if you centered your platform, not around consumers, but businesses that needed catering. When we get an order that is for 300 people, that helps us so much more than a $50 order, right? So a thousand dollars order versus a $50 order. And so we. Started to co-create, um, and then messaging, right? I think, I think entrepreneurs are finally actually getting this and they're building and, and, and you see this more when you see women and people of color building, but organizers are brilliant storytellers. Um. Entrepreneurs can learn to communicate vision in ways that inspire and not just selling. So instead of just constantly thinking about how can I sell a product? Um, why not tell the story? And, and it goes back to even Simon Sinek who says, sell the why not the what and the how. Um, so I think that like these things are known, but they're not really lived and they're not really. Uh, entrepreneurs or founders aren't necessarily always leading because there's this constant need to get things done immediately. There's a constant hustle culture. I mean, I think about how much I ate, breathed, lived shit, like hustle, right? It was always like, if I wasn't, you know, busy, I didn't feel like I was doing enough. If I wasn't up till one in the morning working, I thought I wasn't doing enough. And it comes from, a part of it comes from being a child of immigrants too, but a part of it comes from the American dream that we were sold. That if you work hard play, you know, you can play hard. And that's not necessarily true. We do have to take care of ourselves. You know, I've been teaching that to my kids constantly. You know, yesterday, Monday night, my, you know, we're, it's, it's Wednesday today. Monday night. My son had, um, soccer practice. He had a really hard fall. The next day he was complaining about her getting hurt and he felt sore. And I was like, okay, we're gonna take a break from soccer. And he couldn't fathom the idea of not going to soccer practice. He's like, no, I have to go. And I was like, no, no. Coach understands that you hurt yourself and you need to take a break even if you think you can go back and play. It's better to take the rest. It's better to heal than rushing into something you don't know is healed yet. Um, and I think all of that comes back to the hustle culture that we continue to think is okay. Resting is okay. I, I tell the students I work with, I teach at Barn and Columbia and that the, the students I work with, I always tell them, building in the quiet is okay. You don't have to show everything all the time. You don't have to be on social media all the time being like, look at me. Look, follow my journey. Sometimes in the quiet is where the most amazing things come out.

Lee: 20:16

I'm so grateful, deepti, that you are teaching entrepreneurship because your students are really lucky, and the way that you think about this is really counterintuitive to the way that we're socialized to think about, you know, scale just for scale's sake growth at any cost, and. Capitalism really as the main force and you are advocating for something really different. And if it's okay, I just wanna give you some of your own words back because they're really important for us to ruminate on. And what you said about listening and not pitching and listening to the people closest to the problem, what you said about organizers being the best storytellers trust before scale and that power is collective. This idea that we don't have to like ask for permission to lead, I think is really, really powerful. And also thinking about this from a shared leadership and shared decision making perspective feels like really important in this moment. And so much of what you're sharing, I think could. Almost, you know, be seen in any format, whether it's like political organizing, running for office, running a company, you know, and you've even ran for office before. Can you talk about like the line between politics and entrepreneurship and what's there?

Deepti: 21:41

Well, actually I wanted to touch upon something you talked about, like, so when I teach, uh, one of the first questions I've, I've gotten asked about is what do I feel about capitalism? I.

Lee: 21:52

Hmm.

Deepti: 21:52

know, I, I never have enough time because I'm like, how long do we have? We, my course that I teach at Barnard over the summers is a three week course, so it's, it's not a very long amount of time that I have to go outside the lines of the course, but I, I, I do struggle with capitalism, right? Because it wasn't built for most of us. But I also think that it's a system that we're living in, and I think about how can we use it to create things that our communities need. That's the only way I think about it, and it's always

Lee: 22:20

Wow.

Deepti: 22:21

stuff, right. For me, entrepreneurship has always been a tool, not just to build wealth, but to build power, dignity, and visibility for. Everyone who is left out. Um, and that's the way I've always seen it for myself, and that's how I built food to eat. Um, you know, I've built, I've used business and I've used my company to feed people during a crisis to create jobs for immigrant women to challenge who gets to be seen as a founder. Um, so it's not perfect and I'm not trying to romanticize it in any shape or form, but I believe that. the tools that we have and bending them towards justice. That's how we make space and that's how we build new models. Um, and I think that's the way I've been trying to create myself, teach it, talk about it. Um, yeah, so going back to the question of entrepreneurship and politics and how that happened, so, you know, like I talked about politics was. I first fell in love with, how do I create change for my community? How do I create a space for creating new opportunities for, for people? Um, so for me, there isn't really a line between entrepreneurship and politics because entrepre entrepreneurship is political. Every decision, every decision you make from who you hire, who you center, who you ignore, um, how you price. Who you serve is a reflection of your values. I didn't become political when I ran for often. I feel like I've always been political When I chose to build a company, um, it's, I, I built it to center it around immigrants, around women owned businesses, around black and brown people. Um, I challenged corporate buyers to think differently about their vendors. When I used my voice. Um, you know, about motherhood and equity in public all, so all of it, everything to me has been political. I don't think there's a line. Um, I think some people try to create a line, but for me it doesn't really exist, right? So, um, especially if you're a woman of color. And so when I decided to run, I. know, I ran because in 2020 Food to Eat took a big hit. Now we operated with, um, the idea of people by serving people, um, and feeding them in their offices. We were sheltered in place. We went

Lee: 24:44

Yeah.

Deepti: 24:45

in revenue to zero in one day.

Lee: 24:48

Yeah.

Deepti: 24:49

Wall Street Journal had decided to

Lee: 24:50

Wow. Wow.

Deepti: 24:54

yeah, I

Lee: 24:55

Yeah,

Deepti: 24:55

think I've

Lee: 24:56

I know. I don't think.

Deepti: 24:56

the fact that I. Like my first baby was gone, but instead of freaking out in that moment, I really, you know, I remember like talking to my husband, talking to my parents, and I was like, wait, if I'm suffering, I. There's restaurants that are suffering and all those employees are suffering, they're all losing their jobs. They're gonna go food insecure. What can we do to help? So I, and I, I think you might remember this moment where I started emailing the crap out of everyone I knew and was like, Hey, I started a GoFundMe page. Please, um, donate as much as you can. We are going to use this to try to keep the restaurants we partner with that are again, the most vulnerable, um, in business. that they can keep their employees in, you know, in jobs. And we're gonna try to feed families that are going food insecure and. That was a very important time because, you know, I started doing it on my own. I started applying for grants. We raised $160,000 and then we had an incredible partnership with World Central Kitchen. So Jose Andres and his team, they run World Central Kitchen and they do, you know, all of this amazing work. And they came to New York because they realized, um, New York was of the epicenters of. And, um, we fed over half a million New Yorkers with their team. And, and that was truly incredible in that moment. know, I didn't know what was happening with my company food to eat, and I was like, it doesn't matter. But if in this moment I can keep my team around to help, you know, thousands of New Yorkers across the city. Why not? And that's what we did. And in that moment when I was out on the streets, my kids were at home, you know, they were being watched between me, him, my parents, who were also working, in that moment when I was out on the streets and I was like, I have this privilege to be out here to help people. To feed people. Yeah. What is a bigger way and more substantial way for me to be able to create change? What if I ran for office and you know, I did my due diligence and there was a seat that was gonna be open, and I decided over the summer of 2020, I think it was like July or August when I went in and I actually handed in my application. Got it notarized, Did the thing and I decided to run for office. Um, and that was a really tough decision because it's not easy to run for office. I. Um, everything is on the line, right? You're, you're on your, your, your dignity is on the line.

Lee: 27:35

Yeah.

Deepti: 27:35

uh, your values are on the line. People question you. People don't trust you. They, and, you know, all these years I was like, oh yeah, I'm a, I'm a good, I'm a good person, good values, I care for people. And then everyone starts questioning everything about you. But it was a big decision and I'm glad I did it. I did not win. Um, but it was never about winning sometimes, right? It like even, starting a company, it's not, I never created because I was like, oh, I wanna create a billion dollar business. I created because I wanted to drive change. And by running I drove change and potentially inspired the next person to say, I can, I can run. Rishma Sajani ran for Congress. I think she was a first South Asian woman. I think whoever ran for Congress, if I'm correct, and she inspired me, right? If someone like her can do it, I can do it and, and, and representation. You know, representation matters. Yes. It is not a perfect saying at all. 'cause to me it's more about what you do once you are, once you're in

Lee: 28:39

Yeah.

Deepti: 28:40

Um, but that kind of representation does matter and does need to be seen and vocalized, um, and talked about. And so I. While I didn't win, um, I am glad that I did it because I learned a lot about organizing. I learned a lot about I learned that are not what you think they are. And until I started knocking on doors, I didn't realize how moderate, um, the community I lived in was how, know, they really felt as if, um. were protection for them. Right. And, Communities of color do still believe that. And it opened my eyes to a lot of things that I didn't know before because I In my bubble, in my small

Lee: 29:28

Hmm.

Deepti: 29:29

Um, and it's when I started to realize it was really important to continue doing the work of listening to people, getting out there, knocking on doors. Um, it was the first time I also heard something called, uh, motorist rights. I had never heard anyone talk about motorist rights, and I was like, oh, wow, okay. Um, you know, I, I live in a part of Queens where we don't actually have access to a lot of public transportation, so it made sense.

Lee: 29:55

Yep.

Deepti: 29:56

absolutely made sense, but it was just such an interesting conversation where I was like, okay, constituents are not just the people that have the same values as you, your constituents are, everyone. And you have To have conversations with them. You have to learn to, um, agree and disagree at the same time. And, and I think that that has made me a better parent because I don't always agree with my kids. They want ice cream at all points of the day and candy. Uh, I agree to disagree. Um, but no, you know, you know, and, and it's just interesting. I think that like. We, a lot of us live in our bubbles. Um, we choose to live in neighborhoods that are aligned with exactly what we believe in, but sometimes we don't. And when we don't, what happens then? What are the conversations you're having? How do you build for communities that don't necessarily agree with you all the time? Um, so yeah, you know, there's a lot that goes into politics and entrepreneurship and I think that there are definitely things that collide. Um, you know, even when I think about. Building a company is like a candidate, right? You have a product Hmm. or service and that's the

Lee: 31:06

Hmm.

Deepti: 31:06

You have to learn how to talk about them. You have to learn how to sell them. Uh, you have to make them digestible to everyone. Um. and that is like such a simple way to think about it, but it is, right. Like the, the candidate is your product or service and you have to learn how to tell their story. You have to learn how to talk about, uh, how they're gonna drive change and how they're gonna make people's lives better and why they should be the product, um, that they buy or vote for, right? So it's a

Lee: 31:35

Yeah.

Deepti: 31:36

line in that perspective as well.

Lee: 31:40

Just really the way that you think about this is really beautiful. And thinking about visibility, you know, and you've brought up that word a few times and. Thinking about this in terms of like inclusion at its core and what better place than Queens, the most diverse place in the world where you're going to have motorist rights, people, you know, with some of the, the most diverse immigrant communities in the world. Right. So I, it brings me back to just your resourcefulness, your creativity. There's a lot of creativity, I think, in the way that you see entrepreneurship in ways that like. I don't think other people with different lived experience are gonna be able to have that sense of creativity and resourcefulness and innovation that you've been able to have by listening to people and going back to listening to people. It's really powerful bending tools towards justice. Just to bring those words back again. Bending tools towards justice and in this moment where there's like so much blatant injustice, injustice that has always been there, but it's being like really emboldened in so many ways. How do we keep bending tools towards justice when the systems around us feel like they are fighting against that?

Deepti: 33:05

I think the, one of the most important things is to get rest. I don't know that that's a popular answer. I know that we have to keep fighting and that we need, I think people get annoyed when we are joyful. People don't want us to be happy. People don't want us to celebrate the joy that does exist, even in fire of it all. If we don't celebrate the little things that are happening, we'll all continue to burn and we'll all continue to fall down. And I think that this, this, the, there's so much injustice right now, right? It's exhausting, it's enraging. And honestly, sometimes it feels like Im impossible to keep going. But I think. That's what it means to embody justice, right? Not just talk about it. Um, it means like even when systems around us are doing the opposite, it means showing up in those small ways. You know, how do we lead, how we, how do we hire, how do we tell our stories, how we

Lee: 34:07

Yeah.

Deepti: 34:07

other, right? And I think that that's also really important, the joy of it all. Um. In the small things that, that are happening. So we may not be able to burn the whole system down, and I don't think we need to burn it down. I think we can bend pieces of it. We can disrupt narratives, we can build safety within our communities. We can model leadership. Um, and can, know it and show what it looks like when it's rooted in empathy and not ego.

Lee: 34:37

Yeah. Yeah,

Deepti: 34:38

know,

Lee: 34:39

yeah.

Deepti: 34:39

isn't, you know, justice isn't necessarily a destination, it's a direction, right? And we

Lee: 34:45

Hmm.

Deepti: 34:46

toward it, even when everything around us is telling us not to, because we've seen what happens when we don't. So I think it's, it's a slow and steady process. It's not gonna happen overnight. Um, the same thing about

Lee: 35:00

Yeah.

Deepti: 35:00

right? Like, I don't love the system and I can't bring it down tomorrow. And it, it's. Its roots are in a very terrible, come from a very terrible place. I work, I'm trying to work within that system and finding the ways in which I can lead with empathy and not ego. I don't have to be at the forefront of every movement. I don't

Lee: 35:22

Yeah.

Deepti: 35:22

be the leader that gets elected. Just because I didn't win when I ran for office doesn't mean there aren't other ways for me to create and lead. I always talk about in this moment, how can we be innovative? How can we learn from tech entrepreneurs? And then how can we as tech entrepreneurs learn from the organizers, how do we come together to drive those solutions that will really lead and pave the way of the future? You have women that are now starting companies talking about menopause. So we need to get innovative, we need to get creative, we need to talk about the problems, and we need to help each other and, and not feel like only one way to do it. And that's what I mean by by ego. 'cause I think a lot of times founders will say, I need to be the one at the, at the panel. I need to be the at the forefront of this issue. And organizers are the same way. How do we give the mic to someone else? Um. Just today I got an email from a friend who was like, you know, I was gonna apply for this thing, this like grant or fellowship and you know, I thought actually this is something that's right up your alley, not mine. I don't belong in this, so I'm actually gonna, I'm gonna cheer you on to do this thing. I think you should apply. Instead of me and him, him taking the seat back and saying, you should do it. Was so important to me. And I think that that's something that we can all learn from is like, how do I give opportunities that might be coming my way, no matter how scarce they are? How can I give them to somebody else? How can I the platform I have and and showcase somebody else's work?

Lee: 37:06

Yep. Yep. And that's really what we need in our society right now, right? We can see so much gatekeeping in terms of the Democrats keeping out younger, more progressive voices, really gatekeeping.

Deepti: 37:17

Mm-hmm.

Lee: 37:18

like black and brown voices I'm seeing, especially in my community, right? And it takes so much confidence for people to create space for others and share space, and share leadership. It takes so much confidence to lead with empathy instead of ego. It's beautiful. So Deepti, can we talk about this exhaustion? I'm seeing this in my community. The activists and organizers who've been fighting for generations are tired. A lot of the entrepreneurs I know are so. Exhausted, whether it's from the tariffs or the stress of the last five years, or parenting without enough support, like how do we deal with the exhaustion? How do we recover and rebuild even as things continue to change around us?

Deepti: 38:06

Oh, wow. That's a, that's a loaded, loaded question. Um, because I'm feeling this way. Right.

Lee: 38:18

Yep, me too.

Deepti: 38:21

I, I think that it's time to rebuild with care at the center. Um, I

Lee: 38:28

Ooh,

Deepti: 38:28

it

Lee: 38:28

wow.

Deepti: 38:29

to recovery starts with allowing ourselves to rest. I. To grieve, to name what's broken. And I have grieved a lot in these last few years, and that's why I'm saying this, like someone had to literally say to me, joy and grief can coexist. I thought I only had to grieve. Um. I thought that if someone passes, the only way to move forward is to grieve them and to miss them. But you can also do the opposite and find joy in them being in a place that was necessary for them in their journey or whatever it is. but then, so, you know, recovery starts from allowing ourselves to rest, grieve, and to name, you know, what is broken, um, and then to rebuild right slowly and intentionally with each other. And that might look like resources, setting new boundaries. Right? I didn't even think about boundaries before. I didn't realize that I could say no to people. but then I became a parent and I was like, I am, I am. I've created life and now I am responsible for this life and I can, that helped me set boundaries because I realized. It was really important to make sure that I was giving my kids the tools that I didn't have growing up or the resources I didn't have. And that could only

Lee: 39:53

Yeah.

Deepti: 39:53

I set boundaries. and then telling the truth about what we need. I don't think we

Lee: 40:00

Mm.

Deepti: 40:01

I think sometimes we hide the tools we really need to care for ourselves, and I think it's really important that we. Um, name the truth about the things

Lee: 40:13

Yeah.

Deepti: 40:13

need to feel better. Right? And that could be rest, that could be saying no, that could be saying yes. You know, I met someone the other day where they were like, yeah, I'm in my era of saying yes to everything. And I'm like, oh, be careful with that one. He learned to set your boundaries. Um, but maybe that's what that person needs, you know? And in that moment, that's what that person needs, that they were shutting themselves from. Newness from new opportunities that they didn't, you know, they didn't say yes enough, and they didn't get enough of that community they needed. and we can't build, we can't build new systems using the same tools that burned us out. So choose different ones, right? It could be empathy, empathy, collaboration, softness, joy. That's not weakness. That's how we last, I think. Um,

Lee: 41:02

Yeah.

Deepti: 41:03

And each of us has to find that way for ourselves. And it doesn't have to be showing up to a protest. It can be saying like, Hey, I'm a great storyteller, organizers, let me help create the speeches for some of your nonprofit leaders that are going, that are gonna go up and speak because they're not necessarily the best at it. And I can help them write their stories, I can help

Lee: 41:24

Yep.

Deepti: 41:25

If they're really good at the storytelling, I can help them. Deliver it in a better way. We all have different skill sets. How can we show up for each other in different ways that doesn't necessarily us? and then like, you know, the last thing I'll say is let's not be critical of our own community. Oh, that

Lee: 41:46

Yeah.

Deepti: 41:47

show up to this. And it's like, we don't know what was happening in their life in that moment, in that day.

Lee: 41:52

Yep.

Deepti: 41:52

had a kid at home who was throwing up and they couldn't get up and get out of bed to show up the next day. We don't know.

Lee: 41:59

Yep.

Deepti: 42:00

em, empathy leaning really hard into that. The criticism, let's not, let's not criticize each other. let's learn from each other's choices and, and

Lee: 42:10

Yeah.

Deepti: 42:11

those, right? Like Lee, you've decided to do so many things in the last few months that we've talked about, and I'm only learning more from them. Like, wow. are so strong for making strong and brave for making those choices. How do I learn from that? Or how do I understand that? see that's what they need in this moment, but maybe that's not the right decision for me. Right. And vice versa. You

Lee: 42:33

Yeah.

Deepti: 42:33

me.

Lee: 42:34

Yeah.

Deepti: 42:36

so yeah, I mean, I hope that we, we name what's wrong. We, we lead with and, and we rebuild with care at the center.

Lee: 42:46

That, you know, rebuilding with care at the center feels like such an amazing focusing mechanism and. And even, you know, as you say that deep tea, it's like there's so many ways that we're all being hard on ourselves for not doing enough. But I love that of us each just knowing how we can best contribute us trusting ourselves almost as, you know, our own individual activist entrepreneurs, and where do we wanna see movement? How do we wanna impact our communities? And giving ourselves a chance to rest, you know, and to do things differently. And I'm so grateful to you, deep Dee. I'm grateful for this conversation. I'm grateful for your work in the world, and I'm just always learning from you, and I'm so grateful that we could have this conversation today.

Deepti: 43:38

Absolutely. I'm always learning from you, so thank you for, for this conversation and for creating this podcast and also just me space to speak.

Lee: 43:47

Always. I always enjoy our connections, my friend. Thank you.