Empathetic Practice with S. Leigh Thompson

In this timely conversation, I sit down with S. Leigh Thompson—a published and award-winning organizer, strategist, professional coach, and organizational development consultant who has spent over 20 years helping organizations and leaders "Do Good Work—BETTER." Leigh brings a unique perspective to transformation work, having guided everyone from Fortune 500 companies to grassroots organizations through strategic change that builds stronger, more cohesive cultures.

We explore how empathy becomes a strategic tool for creating lasting change, why creativity is essential for transformation, and how empathetic practice can break us out of binary thinking to build truly inclusive cultures.

Leigh shares insights from working with thousands of organizers, educators, and advocates worldwide—including at organizations like the ACLU, GLSEN, and Race Forward—on leadership development, movement strategy, and adaptive leadership.

Leigh's approach is rooted in critical analysis, meaningful relationships, creative problem-solving, and transformative change. Their impressive client roster spans values-driven organizations, Fortune 500 companies, creative and cultural institutions, and leading educational institutions. With over 25 years of experience as a Theater of the Oppressed practitioner, Leigh specializes in supporting complex dialogue and learning through emergent, participatory facilitation that incorporates interactive and embodied engagement while fostering growth, movement, and joy in the workplace.

Leigh holds an Individualized MA from NYU Gallatin, with coursework on change theory, community studies, nonprofit management, public policy, and campaign strategies.

Links:

sleighthompson.com

linkedin.com/in/sleighthompson

instagram.com/sleighthompson

• 00:00 Introduction to S. Leigh's work
• 01:00 Theater of the Oppressed methodology
• 04:00 Art and creativity in organizational change
• 07:00 Moving beyond binary thinking
• 09:00 Defining empathetic practice
• 15:00 Individual vs. organizational empathy work
• 18:00 How equity fits with empathetic presence
• 24:00 Can you have equity without empathy?
• 26:00 Building equitable movements and accountability
• 35:00 Why we all need this work

Transcript

0:06

Welcome back to Empathetic Presence. I'm your host Lee, and today I have the beautiful pleasure of interviewing another Lee that I know s Lee Thompson. Lee is a. Organizer, a strategist, an expert facilitator, and someone who helps organizations transform and become stronger, more cohesive cultures while staying true to their core values. I am excited to talk to Lee because he has over two decades of experience helping organizations think about empathetic practice, putting empathy into strategy. Lee has been at the forefront of equity work before it was even called DEI. For over 25 years. He has been building processes to help us all transform for myself as a trans person. Lee is someone who I have learned from. I imagine we are about the same age, but I might consider him a bit of an elder. Someone who's helped me find myself, given me language to know myself better, and I truly believe that that's what they do. I can't wait for you to hear this interview where we talk about how creativity is a critical part for any change, and that in order to create something different, we have to use the power of our imagination. Lee also talks about how liberation is a place where we all get to be fully human, what that means and how we have to keep fighting for equity and social change until we are all free. As we continue to witness so much instability and injustice in our society, I find Lee's words comforting. They have the tools to move us towards more justice and more liberation,

Lee: 1:57

Lee, it's so good to be with you and get to spend some time with you. And I was wondering, would you tell the people listening a bit about how you use your voice.

S. Leigh Thompson: 2:08

Absolutely Lee, it's actually really great to be here, to get to see you and chat with you today. I do a lot of things. I'm a strategist, uh, I'm an expert facilitator and a professional coach, and a consultant doing organizational development, change management, equity and justice work. I work, solo I with collaborators, and I really work with organizations and leaders to help them build more strong, cultures and values driven work.

Lee: 2:37

Yeah, and I've been thinking about your work so much because I know that you support organizations, you support individuals, you do a lot of theater of the oppressed work, and I think your work is really important right now. At a fundamental foundational level. And can you tell us about like what do you actually do when you're working with an organization or you're partnering with someone a bit about your process and how the work works? I.

S. Leigh Thompson: 3:09

Absolutely. Yeah. I, come to my work from a variety of different vantage points. You mentioned that I'm a Theater of the Oppressed practitioner. I've been doing that work for over 25 years now

Lee: 3:24

Wow.

S. Leigh Thompson: 3:25

it's. It's my chief modality and it's actually a modality that very few people know about. It's really helps, individuals and groups develop stronger critical analysis and creative thinking that can help us better understand ourselves, our relationships, and our groups, and as well as interpret the world and create more strategic action that is rooted in equitable and liberatory practice. it's embodied, it's very somatic in practice. and, actually, and this is probably the reason why I like it so much, it's a lot of fun. it can get, just as silly as it can get incredibly, incredibly deep and it helps groups come to problem solving in ways that they never thought was possible, which can help, shortcut around some of the, the challenging conversations, barriers to dialogue or particular topics that have been hard to have conversations about in the past. The, the press can help us get to it really quickly and in fun, and creative ways. And so that's a, that's a modality that I use a lot in my facilitation practice. But as a practitioner, it's helped me really develop my critical analysis and helped me really understand groups really well. and so depending on the engagement, really my first step when I'm working with an individual or a group of individuals, or an, or a larger scale organization. Uh, is to listen about what people think that they need, what, pieces of information folks have about what they feel is, is going well and what they feel they could be growing at or might be a challenge or might be just straight up they feel is going wrong, and help them, describe that, but also help to listen to not only what's said but what's not being said. and through my many years of experience, try to craft, a. A plan that is strategic that meets them where they're at, that actually leans into their, their skills, their talents, and the culture of the organization has and what they're trying to build, while also meeting the challenges that they have, um, presently and the growth that's, at the moment.

Lee: 5:26

Oh, I love that it's this listening practice and I love that you said that Theater of the Oppress is your chief modality. And when I first learned about Theater of the Oppressed, I think it was in 2006, I was at the Lincoln Center Director's Lab and it, it really ruined theater for me. Because I was like, oh, I don't really want to be in a proscenium stage reading a playwright's words when theater can be this meaningful and can challenge oppression and can really be serving people in their real lives, in their real relationships and problems. And I've, I've read that you, your work is at the intersection of art and social justice and wellness and, you know. How do you think about art in the context of like the organizational work that you do? That's so interesting.

S. Leigh Thompson: 6:19

Yeah. Creativity is a critical part for any change. in order for us to create something different, we have to be able to imagine something outside of our current circumstances. I. Our ability to create, to move from our current circumstances

Lee: 6:36

I.

S. Leigh Thompson: 6:37

else is really dependent on the capacity we have to imagine. And that capacity to imagine can only be, uh, built. I. By creative practices that invite us and encourage to think not just about what's immediately possible, but what seems like it might be impossible, and start to crash towards that. And when we build that muscle, then we can start to open up the possibilities that are available to us, and then think strategically about how are we gonna choose one and move in a direction, in a thoughtful way. And so absolutely artistic practice, creative practice, getting people to open up their minds about what the world could look like, what their organization could look like, what their own personal leadership practice could look like, that is necessary for folks to actually build their skill beyond just the kind of same litany of tools that they've already been using or been shuffled around organizations for the last, many decades.

Lee: 7:30

I am really having a reaction to the idea that change is a creative process because in this moment of so much change and fear to know that, you know, creativity can serve us and that we do need massive transformations right now. it's like one of the things I love about being trans is this idea that we can change and what you said about, recognize what feels impossible and then. Look at ways to make that possible. It's really, really beautiful, Lee.

S. Leigh Thompson: 8:00

Thank you. Yeah, we, have, there's so much, About this current moment that is actually about, um, restriction of possibilities. We get into this, this particular oppositional moment, that very much feels that, folks are really entrenched in a belief that one group wins and one group loses, right? Whatever that group might be. And in order for me to win, somebody else has to lose because that's what I've been taught for so long, or we have to do it this particular way, and that's the only way we've ever done it. And so we have to go back to that way. thinking, maybe there's a way we can all win, that be the goal? And just because we haven't found it yet doesn't mean it's not possible. We have to be able to really expand our imagination to what would it be like if everybody was actually succeeding, if everyone was actually fed, if everyone was housed, if everyone felt good about who they were. if nobody had to result in, in violence or fear or. intimidation or shame in order to get their needs met. but we all just actually gotta feel good and get things done. Most of the time people will just say it's not possible because they've never experienced it. And that's because our creativity shut down. Uh, because when we were playing as little kids, we thought everything was possible, but as we got older, we. Forgot how to play. We forgot how to create and imagine. And so the ability to really cast a long line out into, the horizon, is what allows us to actually go in a direction that is really visionary and innovative and gets us out of the moment of, this blame, shame, guilt, and, you know, fight and destruction mode that we're in right now.

Lee: 9:39

And that zero sum game is like such binary thinking, which is so boring. And I know that we all get caught in this binary thinking just because it's so default in our society. But that's really, I think what you're talking about and even like. AI and all of these things I think right now are making it harder to be imaginative and to really let ourselves imagine, and it feels like our imagination is even being under attack. And we know our empathy is being under attack. And I've heard you speak a bit about empathetic practice, and I'd love to hear what, what do you mean by that?

S. Leigh Thompson: 10:17

when I talk about empathetic practice, I talk about the ability, to really connect with all of humanity. So, for me, empathy is beyond if, if we get into like its core, Latin meaning, empathy is to feel the same as somebody else, which I. Straight up. I don't believe it's possible. I don't think we can believe, feel the same as somebody else because we are always bringing our own histories, our own experiences, our own, identities into how we think like somebody else. and so, you know, for a long time, you know, I would talk about sympathy, feeling similar to. Now, sympathy isn't a word that we usually think of as a really great word in, in, in talking about, the quest for, for real connection with people. Um, it's often kind of like, eh, raise an eyebrow as if it is somehow insincere. empathy right now is what a lot of folks are, are. for. and so moving out of it side Latin root to try to move it to what is, how is it being used right now? to try to feel for right to feel a connection with. and for me the idea of empathy isn't about just feeling like another person, but actually about really that person as if they are a part of self. Then when we're connecting to all of humanity, we're connecting to all of our humanity and all of the ways that we can be human in this world, and therefore connecting to other people the same way that we are connecting to the things that we want and need as well. which actually takes healing the self first, right? Because it's really hard to heal and connect and to support somebody else. if you're not able to really. Tend to those wounds that you, carry as well. and then at the empathetic practice, when we're really trying to, understand another person, it gives us tools, it gives us perspective to actually build strategy. And so while I look, I love, a, kumbaya moment. I love feeling good about other people. I like that more than feeling, angry and rageful, which I spent much of my life feeling. my. practice beyond that is actually about being strategic. What I've been seeing in my 20 plus years of, of movement strategy and organizational development work that uh, this moment that we are in is very much, uh, connected to, like you already talked about binary thinking, right? Like this oppositional approach, where folks believe that in order to advance. like whatever my cause might be, and I'll put that in quotes, right? My cause, whatever my cause, is in order to advance that I need to take down or, fight against the other's. Cause I need to, in order for me to win, somebody else has to lose. that comes with, you know, I. other people for, misgivings, punishing people, exiling people, you know, sequestering people, ejecting people from, organizations. It's, we will, we'll fire them, we'll punish them, we'll sanction them, whatever that might be. and then because people are fearful of that, then they get resistant because they don't want to be punished or hurt or harmed. And so then there's this fight that happens, this opposition that's pretty strong. and that opposition has been built in then if, because I believe this, the other people believe this opposite thing and they hate, and I love, right? Like, that's kinda like the rhetoric that we hear a lot. most people who do things that I have deep, deep, distaste work don't believe that they're hateful people. That's just true. And having talked with a lot of folk, they don't believe that they're hating people. you know, one example that I gave this last weekend when I was doing a workshop on, on radical empathy is, I worked with, uh, queer young people for a very long time. and when some family members would punish their children for coming out. Those family members didn't believe that they didn't hate their children, right? they believed that they were doing this really hard thing that they had to do because they loved their children and they disagreed with their choice right now, again, not anything. I agree with it. And also if I just, uh, focused on the outcome and say that, oh, because the outcome is hurtful, you must hate your child. And then I engage that parent around the idea of how much they hate their child.

Lee: 14:46

Yeah.

S. Leigh Thompson: 14:47

because they have no way of understanding that.'cause that's not their motivation. They're gonna think that I'm. Not that I don't understand, which is actually true, I'm performing that I don't understand. And so they're not gonna listen to me either. Even if, I give suggestions of how they can do something better, if I connect to the love they have for their child and help them to understand how they're the way that they're performing, love is harmful, then I'm actually connecting with empathy.'cause I can understand that they love their child, I can understand that this parent deserves love, happiness, safety, and security just as much as their child deserves. Love, happiness, safety, and security. I can connect to both like those and, and just as much as I think that I deserve love, happiness, safety, security, then if we can connect on that piece, then we can actually strategically start, make decisions. What is the best way to support them in getting what they actually want to support their child? That doesn't have violent outcomes, that doesn't hurt, that doesn't harm in organizational development work. Similarly, when I'm working with organizations to say, if we are looking at this leader, this, uh, this policy that we're trying to pass, whatever it is as a thing that we're fighting against, rather than what are the things that we can actually, how can we support getting our needs met by really understanding. What the other side? Other side. I put that again in quotes'cause I don't wanna be istic, but what this other, well, I believe to be an oppositional positioner side wants and needs and help them find a way to get it that doesn't invest in domination, destruction, and harm. but you have to, the only way you can do that is by practicing and it's a muscle that takes time to build. I've dealt, developed, you know, workshop practice to. Structure out how you can build that muscle, and then how you can go from that empathetic, um, understanding into strategic action that helps you get your needs met.

Lee: 16:45

It's really beautiful to hear empathy and strategy paired together. I think that we don't associate those two words together and you helping us practice empathy and learn how to make it strategic is really, really helpful and tangible. And it also makes me wonder, do you notice any differences in empathetic practice between working with someone on a personal issue versus a professional, uh, an individual versus an organization? Is it always the same practice?

S. Leigh Thompson: 17:14

Hmm, that's a great question. it's not always the same practice. that, an individual has more movement and capacity to do something on their own. whereas as an organization is made up of a lot of individuals as well as institutionalized and codified policies, procedures, um, both which are formalized and also informalized and a larger culture that, that you're trying to craft, it's possible. within organizations it looks different, but, uh, individuals are dealing with, a lot of, The, traces of institutionalized policies and procedures within them. but at the same time,

Lee: 17:55

Yeah.

S. Leigh Thompson: 17:56

uh, able to move, with some more, with more deftly, uh, than, an organization often can. I don't see it as significantly different on a personal versus a, a work level, um, with individuals. However, that, uh, the things that we, that I seen folks. Holding, um, that are, uh, challenges, barriers to actually building empathy. Um, whether it be for, somebody that they're trying to move or influence professionally or people in their own lives that they're struggling to understand. the building, the practice is fairly similar. and building that lens is fairly similar. and then the question, the scars actually weirdly enough or. Fairly similar as well, because every single relationship we hold is gonna be shaped by the relationships we've had previous. And so a lot of people's personal relationships, whether it be with somebody that they've known for a long time or someone fairly recently are actually tracking back to. The harms that they've experienced much, much, longer ago, just as people in the professional world are going to react to other people based on relationships and interactions they've had, not just from that individual, but the things they've been holding for a very long time. And so all of those are coming into the conversation just as they come in actually to every conversation we ever hold, whether or not we're conscious of it or not. we just, my, my aim is to, you know, help people build that critical analysis that's necessary and they really have to see. much beyond the habits and the beha and the the, tr, you know, traditional and, and, familiarized behaviors. and start to. all of the pieces that make it up and then start to take it apart and then make decisions intentionally. That's when I talk about strategic, it's like I want folks to make intentional decisions, not just passive decisions, and think that other things aren't possible. Not that the tools that are just laid around our feet, which are usually tools of domination and disruption, but instead find the tools that again, we haven't found yet because we're looking at the world a different way. And so the empathetic practice is a piece just looking at the world a different way. And then making choices that are intentional, that hopefully are getting us closer to the outcomes that we desire.

Lee: 20:15

Yeah, incredibly powerful and. It also just makes me think of equity, and I am hearing you talk about empathy, and we certainly can see a huge lack of empathy in terms of equity and liberation in this moment, right? These words are being attacked and vilified, and so how does equity fit in with empathetic presence?

S. Leigh Thompson: 20:39

Yeah. e equity is a, is a word that I have. That I have connected with and has been centralized in my practice for a very long time. And as a person who's been doing work that's kind of like in the realm of justice and liberation for, 25 years, I. that, uh, the, equity is about getting what they need. Um, and those things are different, and, particularly in relationship to the, not just what they need, I. particular moment, but things that they need in response to the ways in which harms have traditionally, historically and presently, how those have actually impacted folks. one example I used to give all the time in, in, in workshops was, we're having a pizza party at, work and we have pizzas for every, and there's enough for everybody to have one slice of pizza, it's kind of a stingy pizza party, to be honest. But here we are. Everyone has one slice of pizza. That the, you know, the equality model is every single person gets one piece of pizza. So Lee, you get one piece of pizza, I get one piece of pizza. Fred gets one piece of pizza. and Fred's family owns a pizza company. They have pizza everywhere. They had, they actually already had pizza for lunch. They're not really hungry for pizza. They're fridges filled with pizza at home. But Fred still gets a piece whereas. That doesn't necessarily seem fair, but it's fair. If you talk about equality, it's not fair in terms of equity. Meanwhile, Lee, maybe you'd haven't eaten that day and you're really hungry. Maybe your fridge is pretty empty. Maybe you haven't eaten in a couple of days, but you still just get one piece, So that the equality model, every single one of us gets one piece regardless, and the equity is to name that. maybe Fred's like, you know what? I'm not hungry. Lee had my piece. Boom, that's equity right there. Lee needs an extra slice right now, Lee's a little extra hungry. Lee gets an extra piece. The, when we're talking about equity at this moment, we're, it's getting all wrapped up in this, uh, in a, on a political, moment. And the word itself actually doesn't really matter. That practice

Lee: 22:51

Yeah, definitely.

S. Leigh Thompson: 22:53

how are we actually showing up to say like, Hey, you, you need a little extra boost right now. I'm gonna get, I don't need it. I actually don't need it. Here you go. Now we've been, in the United States, we've been raised on this concept of fairness. And fairness is, we've been taught is this equality model that everyone still gets a piece. Well, that's not fair. Why does league get an extra piece? I don't get extra ps. Yeah, that's, that may not seem fair on the very, very surface. if we're just looking at how things play out at that pizza party and everybody walks into that room and Fred has no pizza on their plate, and you have two pieces, Fred might say, that's not fair. Because often our, our approach to equity hasn't ever been around getting people to buy in to what they need and what they're giving up will it willingly. And so, and we often haven't been, you know, we're talking about large societies. We're well beyond a pizza party when we're talking about, you know, the United States much less the, the global community. How we build a larger culture to actually show up for our needs are different, and that's okay. And we don't need to just have all the pizza. We, the way that we're, when we have it, when we're building an empathetic practice, it actually helps us really care for what the other people need.

Lee: 24:15

Yeah.

S. Leigh Thompson: 24:15

a reason why it's under attack. It's because it is very effective to invite people to share rather than own. and when we invest in people sharing rather than owning, that's a, dig on. That's, not a dig on. That is something that challenges the core of capitalism itself. Capitalism

Lee: 24:32

Exactly.

S. Leigh Thompson: 24:32

money on, its on its core. It's about ownership. It's about restricting, it's about being able to hold something rather than something being the will or the collective of the people. And, What I know is that people may feel some sort of success by owning more, but I almost always see, and I mean I work with some real rich people to be real at times, not exclusively right, but I've worked with some real rich people that people are happier when they share. I. And so if people are happier when they share, and can we build, cultures and communities and organizations and relationships where we're actually just like, yeah, we're good. We don't need to balance things out. They don't need to be balanced. We just need to make sure that we're actually feeling good about how we're showing up, how I'm showing up and what we all have, and making sure that at the very, very least, nobody is. That everyone is able to be healthy, happy, safe, and secure. and when we have those things, then everything beyond that is gravy.

Lee: 25:31

Yeah, it's almost impossible when it's a zero sum game, which is why capitalism is designed that way. But my question for you, this, is fascinating by the way. I love the way that you think about this work. I think it's so important right now, but can you have equity without empathy then?

S. Leigh Thompson: 25:55

we can have the result, we can have similar results without but I don't think we're ever gonna actually get to it. No.'cause folks having, getting what they need, I. That on, like, if we look at that as like a, an exchange of things, right? If we go back into that, like accounting, Yeah, folks can get what they need to some extent, but actually buying in and actually investing on what do people need versus what do they want, what feels like, uh, fair or unfair that requires empathy to be able to actually even do that work. And so is it foundational practice in order for us to get to the place of, Equity, which gets us to the place of liberation, right? Liberation is a place where we all get to be fully human and we do not have to, um, uh, where value is not contingent on any characteristic. but we actually get, to just live not, you know, people said the word free before and I'm very cautious not to say free, but people get to live fully in fully human lives. which means we have access to things, to, to. that are available to us, while still being responsive and caring to the others around us. And if we're not in relationship with hu other human beings in a way that is right and just, and caring, then we're not actually fully human. There's a reason why we're, we're social, a social, uh, species is because we. We want to be in connection. And so if we're creating dividing lines between us and other people, then we're not fully human either. So liberation is a place where we're fully human, where we have full connections with other people. We have to be able to understand self and other in relationship with each other as opposed to that dividing line of binary, us versus them, me versus you, um, self and other, but said, we're all part of this together, that requires empathy to make it happen.

Lee: 27:46

Liberation is a place where we are fully human. Yes, And you know, I have so much hope for the organizing that's happening all over this country. For people using their voices. And yet you mentioned movement strategy and thinking about liberatory spaces and social impact spaces and how much conflict there is in so many of these spaces, let alone, you know, really any space. But how do we build movements that are equitable, that are liberatory, and how do we hold each other accountable when we have internal disagreement?

S. Leigh Thompson: 28:29

it's not easy, because we all, I, I'll be cautious not to say all. the, vast majority of us have been steeped in a culture that says, criticism is, is, dangerous because criticism leads to punishment, exile, destruction, et cetera.'cause that's what. Has happened to us and we've seen that happen to other people. and so, you know, to be in a place where folks can actually have, organizations have cultures of curiosity, um, and are able to provide critical and loving feedback to each other, um, that doesn't feel threatening, that takes a while to develop. And across organizations we're dealing with different cultures, right? Because each organization has its own unique culture. It's both in its field, but also like where they're at in the world and also what their work, just their workplace culture is, who's actually making it up? the, body of the organization, the constituency, et cetera. but across these organizations, folks don't agree on what we're supposed to be doing. and, often that those disagreements go into, the finger wagging, blame, shaming, guilt pieces. I, you know, first off, I believe that, you know, we have to move beyond, like what in, in our movements, there's, there's not going to be a one right way. There just isn't. We have to take that, off the, shelf and instead say there's a lot of ways to move forward. What am I uniquely positioned to do, and what's the strategic opportunity available? This is what, you know, I walk all of my, my clients through this, this question, what are you uniquely positioned to do? Is what are you, what are your skills? What are your talents? What are your capacities? What are your positionalities and relationships that you are holding, um, that feel, uh, important? Um, those things, all of the things. What do you have the energy to do or the resources to do? that's your unique positionality. And then there's a strategic opportunity within those fields, within those things that you're holding that perhaps you can engage at that moment. And that's gonna be different based on what your unique positionality is and what's available to you, where you are, what the moment is. So each group may be actually having to do different things, um, and understand that there isn't just one right way. So one of the things that I often get, one of my roles often is in spaces that often are a little bit more incremental.

Lee: 30:58

Yeah.

S. Leigh Thompson: 30:59

to shift, asking for policy changes, you know, helping do training and culture shifts. And some of those things are smaller practices, even though there are violences that are happening right now that are causing death and destruction for communities globally. But definitely right here, not only in the world, but in my own hometown, right? and so, like incrementalism, isn't going to meet the needs of the person who's under fire

Lee: 31:24

Yeah. Yeah.

S. Leigh Thompson: 31:26

I. I, and there are people who are trying to stop people who are under fire right now today, and they need something fast.

Lee: 31:36

Yeah.

S. Leigh Thompson: 31:37

and fast movements usually don't get buy-in. Except for in some situations, in some circumstances, we can talk about that another time. But, but most of the time, fast, you know, stop this right now, that is it literally an oppositional stance. and so that's not going to develop buy-in, but it may stop the behavior, but it may not stop the culture where the behavior isn't going to replicate down the road. and so with that. We have technology that both of those strategies actually need to happen. Like I need somebody to be there to say, stop this violence right now, and I need the cultures of people who are told to stop this right now are also learning how to build the practice so that way they never go back and put somebody under a fire again. Stopping that one time isn't going to help the next time unless we are building those practices. so we need any, we need to be empathetic about the, any and all fronts. This work needs to happen. I, I'll tell my client, or I'll tell people often that like, I actually really benefit from having people outside the building saying, you know, with, with I, I see this. To be silly, but with pitchforks and torches saying, you know, like, because when that, when people are outside with pitchforks and torches and I'm like, Hey, don't you think it'd be nice to get outta here?'cause I think they might burn the building down. We should go and get the buy-in about leaving and vacating before anything happens. But having folks put fire under the cause can help. The rest of us who are doing that incremental work actually have the energy and. The opportunity to coax people, to change.'cause change isn't easy folks. Rarely embrace it or enjoy it. Um, and so because of that, we need it, we need a lot of motivation to go through change. and that motivation, I, if it's just like fear of, you know, litigation or some sort of like political impetus, it's not the greatest, but if it can be because folks actually are building these tools to care, building the practice to, to understand why the change is helpful, and then building the skills. The muscle to just understand that change is constant. So let's just start to feel it and know it. then they can move a little bit more swiftly in it. And then just last to say on that, that, when we talk about organizations, kind of in these infighting moments, that we, really have to think about, are the things that we have in alignment and can we just really support each other on that? And that's part of that empathetic practice again, is even it's hard to see what are the pace places of alignment and then can we support in building the, conditions where we get that. foundational work hasn't happened a long time around equity and justice work. Um, folks have been doing top level and, and when DEI put that in quotes, became a a an industry, while

Lee: 34:27

Yeah.

S. Leigh Thompson: 34:27

work has happened for decades and decades and decades, right? Like

Lee: 34:30

Yeah. Yeah.

S. Leigh Thompson: 34:31

work be before DEI work letters. but I. When DEI became an industry, it be much of it was in, this is how you don't get sued, this is how you don't get, um, this is how HR policies that you create, et cetera, et cetera. But not about like how do you support your. The culture of your, um, of your staff to think differently about each other and about themselves. How do you get them to not feel in competition with each other, where they have to, you know, feel like they're fighting all the time? How do you actually build a, community of care where that even if someone is let go, they're not gonna wanna sue you?'cause they straight up know that you're trying your best and they care about you too. Right? Those are radical, you know, radically. Transformative spaces to work. I've worked in such a space in the past and I've helped create them since. but folks don't think it's possible and so they just stay in these places of competition. so when we build those foundational, understanding, empathy being one of those practices, then folks can have the tools that they need to develop policies and procedures and practices that actually are rooted in these more liberatory, uh, approaches.

Lee: 35:41

I can see why it's so important to have someone who's external to the organization and you being an external facilitator and consultant, I can see how important that is just for helping people even get to that place. And you know, it really comes full circle of thinking about like change as a creative process. And there is no one size fits all. And even that, gives me. Hope and clarity, and I'm really grateful, Lee, that you have a practice around this, that you have a process to lead us through and organizations through, because boy, do we need it right now.

S. Leigh Thompson: 36:18

Yeah. And we need it. I, I would say we've always needed it. We need it all the time. And right now we're seeing why it's been needed. We're seeing the, the worst part of it. And even when things seem to be a little bit more copacetic, we still need to be doing it, until we reach liberation where everyone just kind of gets, gets everything that we need and want all at the same time. Like, we should always go be going towards how do we become better? so when this part of the work is done, there will always be more to do. Change is that constant piece. We're just gonna keep growing, keep building, and the only time that you know that you have failed is when you're not moving in the direction of that liberatory vision. so yeah, we always need it at all times. Right now we're in a really hard spot. we're feeling a lot of pain points. There's a lot of hurt and harm in the world. And I'm also saying that a lot of the people who are the pronators of the destruction that we are experiencing right now also are experiencing, have experienced a lot of hurt and harm in the world.

Lee: 37:14

Yeah.

S. Leigh Thompson: 37:15

they are results of trauma and generational trauma that has taught them that the only way to be a human being is to cut themselves off from other human beings and to hurt other people. And that's a really sad existence to live as well. We all need it. you know, this is an opportunity for us to kind of continue to try to get it not through fighting at each other, but actually bringing each other in.

Lee: 37:38

We all need it and I'm really grateful for you to be able to see that and to help us see it. And I'm so grateful for this conversation and to be your friend and to learn from you. Thank you, Lee.

S. Leigh Thompson: 37:51

Same. Thank you so much for this, this conversation. I really appreciate it and for everything that you'd continue to do, to lift up the what makes people, the best of who they are, and to feel better about how they share their voice and how they show up in the world.

Lee: 38:04

Thank you my friend.